I typically hear the term ‘systemic’ around systemic racism, used to refer to how the structures and institutions themselves produce racist outcomes. One example of this would be the justice system that disproportionately incarcerates black and brown people. (I’m using justice system to refer to the interconnected systems of policing, the courts, and penal systems). I’ve heard some people say that the ‘system is broken,’ because it is producing unjust outcomes. And that is certainly a way to look at it: if a justice system is preventing, obstructing, or reducing justice then it is not functioning for its intended purpose, and is, therefore, broken. However, this doesn’t tell the whole story. Like Dr. Bezio mentioned at the end of the podcast, we need to pay attention to where we are coming from. Police forces were originally created to track down escaped slaves. They played a huge role in enforcing Jim Crow. And prisons have a long history of incarcerating black and brown bodies at disproportionate rates, even going back to the 13th amendment that outlawed slavery and involuntary servitude, except for when punishment for a crime (you can watch the film 13th if you are interested in learning more about this). The roots of the justice system are in racism. So when it creates racist outcomes, is it really broken, or working exactly as intended? Clearly, this is not an outcome that we accept, and so we must change the system. Or do we? Are the roots of racism too deeply embedded in our current justice system to reform it? Some activists advocate for abolishing the prison system. They say that our current setup will never be able to provide justice, and we need to turn to community-based solutions. Others say that we have some pretty good things going in our current setup, we just need to reform it. So my questions are these: When do we know a system is broken, or just providing output that we don’t like? and, When do we reform the system or throw the whole thing out and start over?